Posts by Cold Steel

43

Jesus sacrifice and animal sacrifice contradiction

by trackregister99 in

romans 3:25 says that jesus sacrifice was applied to the past for sins forgives.. then why god request animals sacrifice like "shadow of the good things to come" (hebrews 10:1) if the jesus sacrifice forgive sins to the past.. the animal blood not have none value, because jesus sacrifice was applied to the past.. why sacrificies for forgive of sins was requested by god if romans 3:25 says that jesus forgive the sins to the past?..

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Cold Steel

TrackRegister99: ...if Jesus sacrifice was considered realized in the past, why [was] animal sacrifice was requested? That is the contradiction in my question.

In baptism, we are lowered into the water to symbolize the death of Jesus and his going into the grave. When we are brought out of the water, it represents Jesus coming forth from the grave in his resurrection. Even though there’s nothing special about the water, baptism itself is for the “remission of sins.”

Baptism, alone, cannot remove sins. It is a work, and we’re told that works cannot save. On the other hand, we cannot be saved without it. The efficacy of baptism is in the death and resurrection of the Savior, and baptism, like animal sacrifice, is symbolic. And, again, though neither will save on their own merits, obedience to them will save.

Recall Naaman, the leper, great captain of the armies of Syria. Naaman came to the prophet Elisha to be healed and was told to bathe in the Jordan River seven times, and that his leprosy would be gone. Naaman was outraged. First, Elisha wouldn’t even come out and meet him personally, but sent his servant to meet them. And why the Jordan River? Weren’t there better rivers in Syria, from whence he came? As he was preparing to return to his own country in a huff, his own servant checked his anger and urged him to be obedient to the man of God. Had this servant of the Lord told him to do some great thing to be healed, would he not have done it? So Naaman was obedient and washed seven times in the Jordan and came out clean of the disease. (See 2 Kings 5)

Naaman was right. There were larger, more impressive rivers in Syria. But it wasn’t the water that healed Naaman; it was obedience to the prophet’s directions. He could have bathed in the Abana and Pharpar rivers, in Damascus, for seven years and he would not have been cleansed.

Adamah: Teaching what, exactly? How to slaughter sentient beings? Did anyone inform the animals that they're on the Planet simply to be “teaching devices”?

What animals knew before coming to Earth is immaterial to the discussion. No flesh was ever wasted, and as for the animals themselves, they were not harmed in any way. Like humans and wild animals, they have spirits that survive death and return to God, who gave them life. It also may be that the animals themselves are made to understand the law of sacrifice before coming into mortality. God ordained the use of animals for the benefit of man, and sometimes that includes teaching. As someone rightly observed above, when Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit, God gave them animal skins to cover their nakedness.

Adamah: ...the Bible features human sacrifice, or have you forgotten about the Binding of Isaac (willingness to sacrifice his son), Jephtha's daughter running out of the house to greet him (who WAS sacrificed), and King David's execution of the seven descendents of Saul to counteract God's anger that resulted in a long drought (and their killing appeased God's vengeance, AKA served as a human sacrifice)?

We all know the story of Abraham’s binding of Isaac, and how the Lord stopped him. Again, it was a teaching aid, and binding his only begotten son, he prepared to sacrifice him to God. In other words, it was in the similitude of the binding and sacrifice of God’s only begotten Son. According to some extrabiblical accounts found in the last hundred years or so, Abraham doubted the Lord would let him go through with it. And still another account has him ready to sacrifice Isaac, but that he had faith that God would subsequently bring Isaac back to life. As for Jephtha, let’s stay real, here. What makes you think this is the type of sacrifice approved by the Lord? Jephtha didn’t even have the priesthood, which would have been required to offer sacrifice. Jephtha was of the tribe of Joseph, through Manassas. The story’s legitimacy also has been questioned by biblical scholars and historians. What is agreed on, however, is that human sacrifice is in no way condoned by God.

The word of the Lord was very specific on this. Even though the wandering Israelites had seen God’s presence on Sinai, the thundering command of Jehovah underscored the ever-serious nature and threat of the Canaanite atrocities: “And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.”

He also stated:

Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land...hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not; then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

Molech’s profligate priests were little more than pagan pimps, and here the Lord says it’s not enough to simply not engage in these practices; if a man witnesses someone else engaging in them, “and kills him not,” then the Lord will curse that man and his family. The reference to the Lord cutting someone off is very much like excommunication, or being disfellowshiped. It's a cutting off from the people of God. If it's a stranger who transgresses, he is killed. If a local engages in the sexual rites of the Molech cult, he, too, is killed; and if Person A knows that Person B has engaged in Molech worship, he and his family are cut off from the people.

This cult was one of the most wicked in world history. Not only did they engage in degenerate sexual practices with prostitutes who acted as priestesses, they heated idols into red hot furnaces, then put infants into the arms of the idol and by means of a device attached to the contraption, delivered the screaming child into the belly of the furnace. And they used drums to drown out the cries of the infants. Yet atheists never fail to label the wiping out of such cults as "genocide."

43

Jesus sacrifice and animal sacrifice contradiction

by trackregister99 in

romans 3:25 says that jesus sacrifice was applied to the past for sins forgives.. then why god request animals sacrifice like "shadow of the good things to come" (hebrews 10:1) if the jesus sacrifice forgive sins to the past.. the animal blood not have none value, because jesus sacrifice was applied to the past.. why sacrificies for forgive of sins was requested by god if romans 3:25 says that jesus forgive the sins to the past?..

.

Cold Steel

The shedding of animal's blood means nothing to our salvation except as a teaching device. The animal without blemish is a reflection of Jesus' blood being shed for our behalf. One LDS ("Mormon") scripture, allegedly written by Moses, states:

And [God] gave unto [Adam and Eve] commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord. And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me. And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth. Wherefore, thou shalt do all that thou doest in the name of the Son, and thou shalt repent and call upon God in the name of the Son forevermore.

Animal sacrifice has been widely practiced by early civilizations all over the world. In many of the more blood thirsty, backward cultures, people were sacrificed. In Mesoamerica, the Mayan and Aztec civilizations were exceptionally bloodthirsty, as well as many of the cultures in the land of Caanan (yep, the same cultures whom atheists bemoan as having been wiped out by Moses and Joshua). The people of Carthage sacrificed infants through the fires of Molech, and when the Romans wiped them out, they spent centuries thereafter trying to determine what drove them to it. In fact, when bad things happened to Rome and its interests, many of its people would blame their fathers for having destroyed Carthage which, after all, did nothing to Rome except compete with it in trade. They called it the "Punic curse."

I think God destroys such societies, and in the latter case, I think he used Rome.

The point is, sacrifice began as a teaching device and was then subverted and corrupted by the Adversary to the point it had to be destroyed.

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21

Why do you still go to meetings?

by Aroq in

i'm asking this because there are a few on this site who do not agree with the wt or gb, but yet still go to meetings.. .

why?.

Cold Steel

In the days of the apostles, I don't recall reading anything requiring anyone to going to weekly meetings. The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, I think, are teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

Things like meetings, except the Sabbath meetings, are not set forth in the New Testament. Neither is the doctrine that all baptized members are ministerial servants. There were no publishers in the first century, but there were elders and seventy. Now, in our day, the GB has (like the ancient Jewish leaders) an entire scratch pad of commandments and expectations for the church they administer.

Can people be disfellowshiped for not going from door to door? And what if circumstances exist that would keep them from attending meetings throughout the week? Anciently, the first principles of the gospel were faith, repentance and baptism of water and the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands, but nowhere is the aministration of meetings mentioned in the NT.

10

The true religion of God, JW's follow Rutherford not Jesus, proof.

by Crazyguy in

when push come to shove dealing with witnesses or elders one could just say 'i follow christ and not the teaching of rutherford" of course the elders or whom ever your talking to will be shocked and wondering what the hell your talking about because we of course follow christ really?.

jesus; said in john chapter 6, 'one must eat of his flesh in order to have life'.

rutherford; "dont do it, only us anointed sons of god can" .

Cold Steel

The problem is, most faithful Jehovah's Witnesses view the Governing Body as a quorum that speaks for Jesus/Jehovah. When Jesus said, "Those who have seen me hath seen the Father" wasn't a literal way of saying they were both physically the same Being; but, rather, that the two were so one in purpose and unity that when Jesus speaks for the Father, it's the same. No one can put a wedge in between them or expect one to say or do anything different than the other under the same circumstances.

The GB has taken the position that if they say or determine something relating to God or the Society, if you've heard from them, you've heard from Jehovah. I don't honestly know whether they believe they're God's chosen servants or not, but the GB has been very bold about flaunting its members' alleged callings amongst Society members, likening themselves with the apostles of old.

7

Heroes of the Bible

by Oubliette in

the thing that first attracted me to a study of the bible was what i got from reading the gospel accounts of jesus.

i was a teenager at the time attending a private religious school.

(i was going there for sports, not religious reasons).. in our religion 101 class, we were required to read all the gospels.

Cold Steel

“At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.” - w2013 11/15, p. 20, para. 17

The Governing Body would have a point if they actually received revelation. For example, the ancient apostles, knowing that Jerusalem was going to be destroyed, directed the saints to leave the city and gather at Pella and other places where they would be safe. The problem, however, is, does the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses receive such revelation from God? Based on their miserable prophecies over the past several decades, the answer is doubtful.

If the Governing Body members believe in their own divine callings, yes, I can see where they would feel competent to make such a statement. But to me they’re false prophets—men who are self-appointed and part of a manmade organization. None of them has had a vision; nor have any of them entertained angels, seen God or received any guidance (that we can tell) from God. They are what they accuse other sects of being, and I always feel like choking when any of them refer to any other sect as being “manmade.” In the scriptures, when God called men to the ministry, it was a holy calling done through revelation and with two or more witnesses.

“We need to obey the faithful and discreet slave to have Jehovah’s approval.” Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.24

Again, bold statement and all based on but one verse in Matthew 24.

Obliette: The writing is on the wall. The religion of Jehovah's Witnesses has become that which it publicly condemns. It hypocritically squashes any dissent with a brutal hand.

In the PBS series I, Claudius, an orator tells an actor who says that the theater isn’t what it was: “And I’ll tell you something else,” he said. “It never was what it was!”

Of course you understand why it has to squash dissent with a brutal hand; it’s a matter of survival. Today, society, government and religion are primarily built up to acquire power and gain. Even true religion and good government must survive and avoid subversion. But in the case of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the publishers greet people at the door with the observation that wickedness and natural disasters are on the rise and that the world has fallen prey to manmade religion and self appointed religious leaders. But how have they ever shown they were any different? Who appointed and ordained the Governing Body? And who set them up as the faithful and wise servant who must provide spiritual meat to the Lord’s domestics in his absence? Just where did they get their ministerial authority and the aforementioned keys of the kingdom?

In short, though the “slave’s” identity has morphed over the years, they never were what they were. How are they not manmade and self-appointed? They never say! What utter effrontery, too! It’s like showing up at the White House and informing Security that you’re the new President. To which they will say, as the Lord will say, “I never knew you,” or in short, “Your name’s not on the list!”

Obliette: If Jesus and the Prophets were the heroes of the Bible, then the religious leaders that silenced them are clearly the villains.

Yes, and they’re the ones who have usurped the authority of God and have polluted his word.

Apognophos: Indeed, and where is our modern-day Jesus to counter them? Is there any man that can call out these guys in a public way on their hypocrisy? It doesn't seem that anyone is capable of doing so.

Of course there are many here who are calling these people out on their outrageous claims! What the slave must do, though, is cut the telegraph wires, or in other words, find a way to keep the opposition from being heard. And this happens when they threaten to disfellowship people who might otherwise listen to friends or well wishers. It’s not uncommon, in fact, for Jehovah's Witnesses to throw away unopened letters or refuse to return phone calls or even speak to those who can break the spell.

16

If the Watchtower Society is truly god's only earthly chosen organization then god surely must be an idiot !

by Finkelstein in

that is cannibalistic.

from page 23 of the march 22, 1974 awake!

that is cannibalistic.

Cold Steel

I remember reading a whacky article years ago about how to prepare and eat human flesh in the event of a national disaster. As most could guess, the article was mostly written tongue-in-cheek; however, the authors suggested from a moral standpoint, one should try to limit their cannibalistic diets to members of motorcycle gangs! Having taken the position that blood transfusions are, essentially, the same as drinking blood, the conclusion that organ transplants being cannibalistic can't be far behind.

First, all Jehovah's Witnesses who have eaten a hamburger or steak (especially rare) have eaten blood. Few animal meats, except those served in Islamic or Koser restaurants, are properly bled. The Society for years has published articles about the diseases and complications one can get from blood transfusions. Certainly they can find some complications resulting from organ transplants and bloody, rare steaks.

But that's NOTHING compared to the commercials being foisted on conscientious people in the United States. For example, a TV commercial features a pig named "Max" who is able to get a quick car insurance settlement, while a human male named "Ted" cannot. This might otherwise be an amusing contrivance for the insurance company, but the commercial clearly crosses the line with the pig going jet skiing with the Ted's "former girlfriend" in an obvious romantic situation. Not only are pigs unclean, Jehovah's Christian Witnesses cannot help but notice the emphasis on beastiality that is being advocated before their childrens' eyes!!! They should thus eschew such attempts to circumvent God's laws and not watch such ads when run.

Innocent Geico ad clearly promotes beastiality in violation of
God's law.

Bloody steak a violation of Jehovah's law?

Transplanting organs is the same as eating them, as any child can see!

110

Stand For Pure Worship, what convinces you that the governing body is being used by Jehovah? Thanks.

by The Quiet One in

i struggled with this question before i got baptised.

what helped you to overcome any doubts?.

Cold Steel

Do you believe there are many lurkers here who are active members of the Society?

I mean, if someone is a real JW true believer, wouldn't lurkng here be a transgression in and of itself? The body doesn't tolerate the religious views of others, especially apostates. Nor does it condone in the least the questioning of its own doctrine or the teaching of new, or different, doctrine (even if it later becomes "new light").

15

Crap....help please

by DS211 in

so tonight my wife looked iver the wt for tomorrow.

she said what she got out of it was that apostates are negative murmurers who can cause you to question jehovah and his earthly org and that it reminded her of the negativity caused when i told her i read ray franz's book.

she said it caused me to question service, family worship night, and praying together.

Cold Steel

DS211: After al it IS the Bible we should be reading.

That's always the best bet. Read the book of Acts and contrast the ancient church with the Watchtower Society. I've noticed that recently the Governing Body has been comparing itself to the ancient apostles. I visited that anointed website and was happy to learn that there's a push back and an emphasis on attaining the heavenly Kingdom. And though missionaries were sent out by the ancient church, it was not incumbant on the individual members to go out two by two. These were church callings. Reading Acts, ask her where the scriptures teach that each church member becomes an "ordained minister" when baptized. That's a demonstrably false doctrine. If that was the expectation anciently, it would have been recorded in the scriptures. Instead, we read that those ordained to the priesthood must be "called of God as was Aaron." (Heb. 5:4)

How was Aaron called? God told Moses, " And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office ." (Exodus 28:1-2) Aaron and his sons certainly didn't appoint themselves.

You don't sound like the type of person who would come across as bitter, and that's how "apostates" are described in the literature. Apostates are bitter and are under the control of Satan the Devil. So hide the Ouija board, the black candles and the Tarot cards and exercise patience.

15

Crap....help please

by DS211 in

so tonight my wife looked iver the wt for tomorrow.

she said what she got out of it was that apostates are negative murmurers who can cause you to question jehovah and his earthly org and that it reminded her of the negativity caused when i told her i read ray franz's book.

she said it caused me to question service, family worship night, and praying together.

Cold Steel

If you value your family, ease up and work slowly to undermine her views in a way that won't threaten her.

Concentrate on finding out why she thinks that the JWs are Jehovah's earthly organization. Also, determine what the consequences she'd suffer if she decided to leave. Would she lose her parents or other extended family? Are all her friends JWs?

Compose a list of questions that bother you and then give them to a non-JW friend. Then, after a little work, arrange to drop by his (or her) home and then let your friend plant some seeds and, if necessary, go back. But know that it's like me and the cat. If my wife had to pick between us, I'd be the one hitting the road! So understand your place in the scheme of things. She's under full mind control mode and none of this will make any sense until she's out from under the spell. And if you pick now to stumble, you may find yourself in one hell of a situation.

As I understand it, she can't divorce you unless you take up with someone else, so you've got a little leverage. You just have to determine the right time to use it. What you've got going for you is that there's nothing in the Bible that indicates the Jehovah's Witnesses are God's organization; there are no angelic ministrations, no visions, no dreams, no spiritual gifts. Jesus didn't issue a press release in 1919 when he inspected the earth's religions and came to the rather remarkable conclusion that the Watchtower Society was the closest religion to what he wanted. If true, this is the first time in world history when God took a less than...proactive...part in setting up a kingdom, or church. In the past, Yahweh has not been very passive when it came to naming prophets, calling apostles, warning the wicked. Whereas the Lord spake unto Jeremiah saying, " Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jer. 1:5) He didn't visit the earth and examine everyone who claimed to be a prophet and then choose Jeremiah as being the closest one to what he was looking for. So that's been my major problem with the Watchtower organization. Yahweh didn't instigate the religion, he didn't appear to anyone, didn't send any angels, didn't ordain a soul, never gave them the Keys of the Kingdom, necessary for being able to bind in Heaven or on Earth; never called anyone that we can determine. And yet the law states that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. So even if Russell claimed to be chosen by angels, he's lacking a couple of witnesses and we're not obligated to receive his word only. So what's the draw? Seems to have all the attributes of a manmade religion to me.

Good luck!

"For ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you...."

12

Who is going to heaven? What does the new app say about this?

by Faithful Witness in

i just finished reading the letter at www.annointedjw.org, in which they respond to the new bible and its commentary.

interesting opening paragraph: .

"while we can appreciate the decision to revise some of the language to conform to a more modern understanding, we are quite at a loss as to why you would interject so much commentary of your own into such a sacred writing.

Cold Steel

Perhaps, DATA-DOG, but Jesus, during his lifetime, always deferred to the Father, and I think that is where much of the problem comes from. When he was baptized, both the Father and the Holy Spirit bore witness of the Son. It also was clear that Jesus had a special relationship with the Son. When people attempted to glorify the Son before his resurrection, Jesus always pointed the way to the Father as the one worthy of worship.

When Jesus was born, I believe he (like us) was born into mortality with no memory of his former past. He grew and progressed, and eventually was put to death and resurrected, then was given all glory and power in Heaven and on Earth. And while we still pray to the Father in Jesus' name. I think it's only right that worship Jesus as the God of Israel.

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus was not Jehovah, but Michael, the archangel. I suppose if that's your belief, you wouldn't want to be caught worshiping an angel. They don't realize that if man needs an intercessor in the days of Jesus that they'd need one in the days of Moses, and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And that intercessor was Yahweh, not Michael.